You are not required to use every single bonus on a ship. It's still the old vagabond.

I'm more worried about the T3's and how they're going to ruin them.

Bad change, also vaga is op and ffs no the biggest problem with the vagabond isnt the cynabal, they both are **** because of range and power creep and of course cause of t3s and because you buff brawling out of its ass and enrf kiting to hell.

The cynabal needs a big buff (and yes other priate cruisers abr the gila need one as well) and the vaga needs a even bigger buff, but not one making it a op brawler (600dps and over 80k ehp, before impalnts/links) but one making it a good kiter.

Also in case anyone cares, try flying a kiting ship when something like that is going to exist

http://i.imgur.com/omX9rre.png (no cap/sensor strenght changes yet; no it will have even better cap).

Thats 98k ehp after the booster is dry (4.25*9*2117 + 17754 = 98729.25).

Alright, I did some EFTWarrioring on the Vagabond.

Here are the possible fits :

Dual LSE ie the Regular Vagabond. Needs a PWG implant and there is no way it can fit 425mms, of course.

XLASB, MWD + AB + WD with Dual 180mms. Still needs a 1% CPU implant even at all V with meta 4 gear.

LASB, ShieldBoostAmplifier, Disruptor MWD with 220mms. It fits confortably, but it's worse than every other Vagabond fits.

Pith *-Type Large Shield booster, medium capbooster, MWD, Disrupt with 220mms and no neutra.

The Dual LSE one is outclassed by every kiting platform right now. Outclassed by the Talos, by the new Cerberus and by the Cynabal of course.

The XLASB thingy is a kiting thing. It works because of the ASB, not because of the hull. It's sort of workable but 180mm guns really are pathetic if you want to kite.

LASB version is ********.

Pith *-type version should work but yeah, buy a Cynabal instead.

The Vagabond needs some help, because right now it's really lackluster compared to everything else.

Either go -1 highslot + 1 medslot and make it a true shield HAC, or give it a good PWG boost so that a XLASB + 220mm fit is possible. Short of that, there is no job a Vagabond does a Cynabal doesn't do better.

Your not going to kite with hams in a sac, and without webs on your primary the dps is terrible.




Yes, 17k ehp (more then a omen or a stabber) is totally going to get alphaed, if you dont like the implants, drop a low or a rigslot.

And no a cynabal can never match that, dont talk out of your ass.

W0lf is a well known troll on the FHC forums, its better just to ignore everything he says.

I first assumed that same since you boost 1780 out of 2180 per asb cyle, but thats still1.4k ehp (doesnt sound like a lot but thats about as much as a standard (nonarty) medium sized gun hits you for per volley) and you can bleed armour/structure for quite a bit, you just cant wait and you need to boost immeditaly once you get below 14%.

I agree on the changes you want (it needs more fitting to and a second range bonus), i disagree on your statement, if every second you are recieving more then 1.4k damage in ine second you are looking at such a incredible amount of dps that you can permarun the asb anyways. Yes there is a margin of error and yes you could lose some ehp due to overrepping but even if you lose 20%, thats still a cruiser with more then 80k ehp.

It will outbrawl most bcs and pretty much all cruisers.

Since they proposed these changes.

Thank you for giving a bonus to a ship (vagabond) when we minmatar players said that it wasn't needed and we would like more to remain a skirmish ship, basically saying "hey guys you can still fly and dont use the bonus" is completely ******** and basically telling us to f*** off .

I find it funny also that you want us to shield tank and be awesome with only 4 meds , i mean 2 are used for a MWD and the booster that leaves us with what 2 other mids to what ? 1 point and another slot to put a tank? Or you want us to dual+º+º tank using our 5 lows?

@ CCP


so you wont fix the vagabond problem that it has to use barrage to do any dmg?
this problem keeps it from fullfilling its role as point range kiter, but it seems you feel diffrent about this.

and i strongly believe the stats of beeing one of the most used cruisers is just an afterglow of its former glorious days

Good luck with that. Cynabal and vaga are almost identical ships that are currently stuck in the same exact role. The vaga, due to its reisists, was the one that could have more easilly broke out of the mold to allow it a brawler role. Now cynabals are obsolete until they are buffed to make vagas obsolete. If you try to buff cynabals to the point they can break out of that role they will just be op.

Other than that these ships are looking really good. Finally they are worth the isk. Yes even the vaga now that it is a better cynabal for less isk.

Would love to see this video if you can link it for me =)

Generally pretty happy with this feedback. Little nervous about Ishtar and Cerb because of everyone being so happy, but hopefully we haven't gone too far.

For those of you concerned with Vaga I have to say your expectations are a bit over the top, except the complaint that the Cynabal is too good relative to Vaga, which I already said I agree with.

Sacrilege folks seem a bit divided depending on how they imagine using it and I promise to keep an eye on the active capabilities following the cap adjustment once people get to start using it, but I think it will be fine.

I can't be specific, but I can tell you that you should be watching for a post from Fozzie coming up soon =)

So...

Bad...

Smaller sigs, higher speeds, and much better resistances compared to bcs means they will have much much much stronger fleet level tanks (with logi of course) than a BC.

The game is a bit more involved than just comparing ehp values, just an fyi :P

18 pages of griping... guess that means they should be left as is.

Don't be assholes guys. They're clearly trying to iterate towards a solution that works for as many people as possible. No balance pass is going to make everyone happy.

That being said, there are a lot of improvements that could be made to this current iteration. The Sac changes proposed by Sarkelias come to mind. The weird bonuses on the Ishtar as well. The sig explosions from T1 to T2, specifically on the Deimos but on other HACs as well just don't make sense. The Eagle is still a red-headed step child. It's not fast enough to kite (and its damage is aneimic), its sig + shield tanking reduce the effectiveness as an up close brawler.

Good steps, but at least another iteration to go still.

no seriously guys think about it.

what is missing from hacs? resilience.

so its role bonus should help it add that.

but a 37.5% reduction in heat damage to modules. would do this!

need to have that mwd with heat on to win that fight now you can last longer

need that extra dps for fleets now you can hit harder

need that extra ehp from resist mods now you can be hit longer

So continue flying tec1 cruisers or faction ones. I will be flying Hacs again.

You mean to tell me a close range skirmisher can't perma tank several hundred DPS and be one of the fastest ships in the game?


Wow, CCP must suck at balance.

3. Comparing an ABC is equally moronic since they have completely different roles. But yes, if you put a HAC into the role of an ABC it's going to lose. Put an ABC into a HACs role and it will compare poorly as well.

Hands off from Cynabal ! You both with Fozzie are Edward scissor-hands ! Go screw-up something else and don't touch Minmatar industry.

Price is never a balancing factor.

See titan blobs.

Vagabond goes way faster than any other HAC in the game and can perfectly control/mitigate incoming dmg

Tracking and gun signature bro. HUGE difference between the two.

And the main issue here is Tornado class it self not Munnin after changes despite my own personal thought on this ship requiring a bit more of attention.

Munnin can already brawl fit and deliver stupid amounts of dps but it's slow, arty fit it will be like all other HACs:

Rails Deimos vs Rails Talos? no match, Talos wins

Beam Zealot vs Beam/Tack Oracle? no match Oracle wins unless the oracle pilot is really awful at fittings

Rails Eagle vs Rails Naga? no match Naga wins, hell I'm sure naga can hit the Eagle with blasters at ranges the Eagle has to use Rails

The main issue now is more about attack BC's performing with Battleship dps cruiser speed/agility and and small signature but have paper tanks, so it's not about pop at the gate and start shooting primaries hitting you from far distances you can hit but force them to fight you at ranges YOU can get the crap out of them.

If you don't want insulting then don't insult people.



It seems I play more than you. It also seems you arnt grasping what is going on here.

CCP are not going to be producing an overpowered monstrosity. Its going to be balanced with t1, the cynable will getting a nerf and t3s are rather heavy one. When all is said an done its going to be a ship with uses.

That would make the t1 ships redundant.

A HAC can be paid for in an hour of incursions and still have leftover change for a t2 frigate. They aren't that expensive and will hold a very real advantage over the t1 hulls although, not enough to make them invulnerable.

3 hours in an anom or level 4 mission then.

Just ignore him, he's got no idea.

I would choose the megathron that is over twice as expensive before fittings. The vaga will have an advantage over the t1 counterpart which is the main selling point.

and I can't play because of IRL reasons, and I've only flown one cynabal EVER which blew up a month ago .

Does anyone else fell like they are hitting their head against a brick wall?

This is their chance to prove you wrong. I got the feeling you would love to be wrong. Hell i would love to be wrong too because i feel the same as you.

We also welcomed with open arms things like the titans, t3 cruisers and ABC.

[Vagabond, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 150
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Projectile Burst Aerator II


Warrior II x5

Because this is clearly underpowered right?

Pretty sure the standard Vaga has had an ASB on it since they were introduced mate...

Stupid Idea: EvE is lacking a dedicated Cyno boat. Have them a second role bonus "500% to HP while cynosural field generator is active". This would make them pretty unique and give them a special role.

That is more a matter of.. Attack BC ****** up the balance in the game completely. They hurt BAttlehip and HACs roles too much.

So boring that I found my self playing with an ishtar Fit with 47K EHP tank, cap stable, doing 2074m/s and capable of doing 900 DPS. All of these without a single gang bonuses. Yeah they sound boring has hell

And to the people crying about the new changes did you even tried already the new changes in EFT ? The Munin, Ishtar, Deimos, Cerberus and Sacrilege are damn good. Still didn't have the time to check them all but from what I've seen they are now very (well) balanced.

Large asb's are too bad? What? An unloaded LASB gives you twice the raw shield HP as a LSE with that bonus.....

This. I've been a fan of this idea since it was first raised in the last thread. Resilient damage dealers with exceptional strike capability.

I havnt read though the entire thread. But the Ishtar split drone bonus sucks IMO. I would suggest something along the lines of combining the bonuses into Drone Optimal, tracking, and speed all in one and adding mabe something like increased drone control range for the 4th bonus.

You do realize that those same T3's are in CCP's sights for the nerf bat right?

I think the biggest concern is that the HACs right now aren't anything special at all.

Even if they end up being beefed up version of a T1 crusier... Who cares?

Make them something unique so it changes the gameplay a little. They are really stale right now.

Experiment and try some new things CCP. We like refreshing changes.

HACs are some of the worst ships in the game right now in terms of having an actual role, they should take as much time as they need with them.

I say leave the old HAC changes in-place and move onto a ship class where people might show some gratitude. CCP can re-visit the HAC in Odyssey 1.2, 1.3, etc. All of a sudden 130+ pages of b*tching and griping cease, and suddenly the proposed changes become acceptable...

Always wanting to have the largest guns and full tank without using fitting mods.

So its terrible DPS will be replaced with Mediocre DPS and it will lose tracking and a Medium neut as a result.

Oh that makes me so happy.

the vaga is fine with these changes. minmatar ships have the best damage projection of any ship in the game. The reality is that teh vaga applies its dps almost perfectly, compared to a missile or blaster boat, which might do MORE damage on paper, but less actual damage.

The Deimos needs 13.000 pwg and 800 CPU. I want to use Large guns and double XL ASB.

I love how people's understanding of the Vaga is:

If it can't fit an XL ASB, then **** it.


Player level competence trying to fit a BS sized mod on every cruiser class ship.... You know what, why not let it fit a 100mn AB too, and for that matter, get an agility boost when using it.

-1 low +1 med for the vagabond
-1 low +1 med for the muninn

DONE

Any bets for a round three?

larges are pretty good with tengu links, implants and blue pills. This is what we'll be seeing a lot of.
I'd be so much happier with a less easily abused bonus like another falloff bonus.

CCP is there any update yet

They want both, 70K EHP 800dps at 40km with autocanons 7500m/s with 100mn AB and and a extra slot/fittings for Xl'asb but theirs will get an extra bonus, will use no cap nor charges and reps 150% per cycle when heat -heat dmg 0%

[Eagle, Rail]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Large Shield Extender II

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Uranium Charge M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


85K EHP before heat with a lowest resist of 77.3% Explosive, just over 2K/S with a Zors and 414DPS out to 79+25 with Uranium or 497DPS at 53+25 with CNAM.

Looks pretty good to be honest.

BLASPHEMY!!! Dont do eeeettt! Prizes are fine as they are now. .

Go on SiSi, fit one properly and if you can't ask someone to tell you how to, then try to take strong boosters fit pirate implants use OGB then come here tell us how bad your vaga is.

I spent 12 hours on sisi yesterday flying around in a dual rep deimos. So here's how it really panned out:

1. I was in a gang with astarte, vaga and my deimos.
2. we had skirmish and armour gang links

OK, I don't want to fly a vagabond directly towards 3 tornados, but frankly I don't want to fly a talos towards them either!